Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Welcome to AINA Insights, where prominent leaders and influencers shaping the industrial and industrial technology sector discuss topics that are critical for executives, boards and investors. INA Insights is brought to you by INA AI, a firm focused on working with industrial companies to make them unrivaled segment of ONE leaders. To learn more about INA AI, please visit our website at www.ina.AI.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Welcome to another episode of the Titanium Economy podcast hosted by INA. Today we are joined by Larry Hilsheimer, EVP and Chief Financial Officer of Grief.
Graeff is an industrial packaging leader with about $4 billion of revenue and operations across more than 35 countries.
Drive has gone through a tremendous transformation over the last decade with acquisitions totaling more than $2.5 billion in value and divestitures in a similar range.
And Larry has led DRIVE through this tremendous transformation over the last decade himself.
Larry himself comes from nearly three decades of experience at Deloitte, followed by operational roles at Scotts and Nationwide Mutual. Gary, we're really honored to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for your time. Gaurav.
[00:01:31] Speaker C: Dan, thank you very much. I'm honored to be here. And I will correct one thing already.
I haven't led this alone.
We've had lots of great leaders here who participated in this. But it's really a privilege to be with you today. I think Greif's probably the right type of company. There aren't a lot of companies around, particularly in the US that have been around nearly 150 years.
Next year will be our 150th year, and this is actually our hundredth year as a public company.
So we have staying power. We've been through, you know, wars, recessions, depressions, you know, pandemics, and we seem to carry on.
You know, most people haven't heard of Greif, right?
We're not a brand name. We're trying to change that a bit.
And part of that is, though people may not know us, but they should appreciate us. And they should appreciate us because our products are what take care of things for daily life. So we make steel drums, plastic drums, fiber drums, industrial bulk containers, jerry cans. And these things take things like chemicals from chemical companies that become the cushions of that chair that you're sitting on or the seat in your car.
It takes tomato paste from the fields and eventually goes to other factories to make ketchup or tomato sauce. It becomes orange juice that's in your refrigerator. It takes it from the squeeze to the make to the smaller containers. So we impact things every day. But we are an industrial company.
And one little quick side note that we think is kind of fun is we have a lot of respect for Warren Buffett and apparently he had a lot of respect for us as we were one of the first stocks he ever owned.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: I didn't know that.
[00:03:22] Speaker C: Proud of that. So it's kind of fun.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: Terrific. So, Larry, you spoke about grief, and I think that's one of our thesis at ina, that industrials are full of these gyms which are really high value creating companies not just for investors, but also for the communities they're around and what they allow employees to enable for their families and generations. Maybe a couple of words about how you think Rife's impact to its communities in which it's present.
[00:03:50] Speaker C: Yeah, we're, you know, one of our primary things is creating vital communities, you know, and part of that is just goes to our core values and core thesis of business. And we believe in something called service profit chain, which is basically, at the end of the day, we help our customers win. If they do, then we win. And the way that we win with them is to serve them with incredibly exceptional customer service. And the only way you do that is with highly engaged colleagues and highly engaged colleagues, like if we build thriving communities around them. And so we've got a commitment to make those things happen.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Terrific, terrific. I think Grive is a great example of how a prospering industrial community can result in a prosperous nation. And we're very excited that you're part of the i250. Thank you, Larry.
Larry, maybe now moving a little bit to Graife and the industry it plays in. Could you share your thoughts on industrial packaging and just its relevance from an investment and a strategic perspective?
[00:04:51] Speaker C: You know, I think no matter what industry you're in. Right. The most important thing is that you operate well.
You know, particularly from an investor thesis. What you want to do is provide a return on that invested capital.
I think you can do that even in the US as an industrial company. If you operate at a highly effective way. And I think Greif's a great example of that. We've been around, like I said, 150 years, and you don't earn that right unless you perform well.
It doesn't mean it's always operated at the most highly efficient way. And it also doesn't mean that we don't have to continuously improve from here. But I think if you look at what we do, one of the things that makes our business unique is if you think about what we make again, steel drums, plastic drums, Fiber drums. We make air surrounded by a thin layer or something.
And so what that means is that we can't ship our product a long way and make money or else the transportation cost will eat us alive.
So it makes for a very complex base which is having nearly 250 plants in 35 countries.
For a company with revenue 4, $4.5 billion, that's a lot of plants.
And so making sure that you operate with a very rigid structure and not rigid with a thumb down kind of thing, but building a culture where people really want to thrive and perform well and deliver great service to our customers. So that's been our focus and I think what makes us differentiated is our ability to do that on a day to day basis.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: That's terrific, Larry. As we have looked at industrial companies and the ones who kind of stood the test of time and done well, one thing which is common across all of them is their ability to transform their portfolio. I think DRIVE has been through an amazing transformation over the last decade with businesses you acquired and business, you know, been divested from.
Any thoughts on what has kind of remained same and what has kind of enabled you to take this quantum up change in that time?
[00:06:57] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, it's kind of interesting if you go to what's the same. I mean, at our core we're a packaging company, right? And we're an industrial packaging company. But you talk about the last decade, it's actually, you look back 150 years. The company started as a cooperage making wooden drums. And you know, when Warren Buffett bought it and he actually sent us some materials recently from a meeting he had here in the 1950s where they talked about transforming from a wooden drum manufacturer into steel drums. And you know, so you Fast forward another 70 years and you know, we got into polymers and we make steel plastic drums. But it's all at its core packaging. But if you look at the last decade, we have divested a number of businesses. And it goes to our strategic intent about becoming less cyclical. Number one, but also serving sort of where the puck's going. And we want to be number one or two in the markets we serve because we think if you're one or two, you can lead the market as opposed to just being sort of the tail on the dog kind of thing. And so we've divested a number of businesses. We had a flexible packaging business that was basically big bags that were sewn, lots of people in rooms sewing bags.
We disposed of that to our joint venture partner. We got out of a Filling business. We used to fill filled drums. We got out of that business and then probably the biggest thing is last year we ended up exiting our container board business.
Container board is the type of paper that becomes cardboard boxes that show up on my and your porch every day for whomever.
And for us, we were a 2% player in the market. It was a very good business for us. But when you talk about capital allocation decisions, we were also looking down the path and knowing we were going to have to spend a billion to a billion and a half dollars in that business to replace a mill into a business that was not a growth sector for us and where we were a 2% player.
We structured a deal with PCA, who's the best player in the market in our opinion, in that space. It was a great deal for them and a great deal for us.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Terrific. I think you talked a little bit about how you shaped the portfolio in a more cyclical context.
I think both the Container Board divestiture and the Timberland divestiture got your leverages down to 1.2x. Could you speak a little bit about from your CFO position, how do you think about the right capital structure in such a setting?
[00:09:25] Speaker C: Yeah, and you know, we always had a target leverage ratio of two to two and a half times. And frankly, the capital markets seem very happy with that. I will tell you that as the industrial sector has been in an elongated industrial recession, I mean, we're into the third or fourth year of this, tolerance for leverage is less. And we had the opportunity to exit, as you mentioned, the containerboard business and a portfolio of land that we had held for 150 years and it produced a significant amount of capital, put us into a leverage structure that we believe is excellent for us at this time.
And we expect that we will not go back to where we were before because our focus now is how do we continue to move down the path of less cyclical end markets. We're really focused on moving into flavors and fragrances, you know, more food, more ag, more pharmaceutical, all places that we currently serve, but it's a smaller portion of our portfolio.
But we're doing that through an approach of organic growth and organic growth and organic growth, but also looking at tuck in acquisitions that fit into the segments that we are interested in, but aligned to the manufacturing processes that we know.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: Got it. And that's what your capital structure is now enabling you to do, to potentially look at those options.
[00:10:54] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Makes sense.
Another aspect of being in a cyclical industry, which several companies have found challenging, is how to manage margins. I think Greif's been on a journey of creating margins over the last few years. And you guys have targets for 27 as well. We speak about both how dry manages the cost versus pricing kind of dynamics, as well as just networking capital to get you to a good place.
[00:11:20] Speaker C: Yeah, and I'll go back a little bit to the journey you said we've been on over the last decade.
When current management team arrived at Greif about a decade ago, it wasn't the company was a bad company or anything like that, but there were opportunities.
And we ended up looking at the portfolio of our plants and we ended up closing or just selling over 100 plants.
And we walked away from a billion dollars plus of revenue where the EBITDA margins were below 5%.
It just, we didn't have the right to be operating those plants. A lot of them were put in place sort of chasing volume.
And we changed the focus of the company twofold. One was an adamant and just deliberate focus on customer service, as I mentioned before, and through outstanding customer service, reliable product on time deliveries, those kind of things, you earn the right to be paid more. And so then we had a relentless focus on value over volume.
And you know, we believe we deliver great value and for that we deserve good price.
And so we've had that relentless focus on that. It served us well.
You know, from time to time you lose business.
Many times it comes back.
And so we will, we continue on that path and we really look to partner with our customers. I mentioned, you know, our desire to help them win.
And if we can figure out maybe an alternative path to packaging that might serve them. Do you use a thinner gauge of steel that continues to serve their needs but saves them money, or do you move them into an alternative packaging? Alternative or selection?
Because then we can both achieve our goals and drive profitability while helping them win in their markets.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: So, Larry, you touched on a point which at least I've seen a lot of industrial companies try to, but maybe not as successfully, is how do you get that customer intimacy where you're able to have that kind of conversation with the customer to say that, hey, we can try X and Y and get to a better outcome, Both of us. How do you engender that at Graive?
[00:13:34] Speaker C: Yeah, and one of the things I mentioned earlier is how we turn this focus on the customer. At that time, we started measuring both our, our colleague engagement internal and customer satisfaction through net Promoter Score. At the time we started that a decade ago, we were not even Mediocre in either, frankly.
We were below 30th percentile in both.
We just received our newest customer engagement or I mean colleague engagement survey. We use Gallup. And in manufacturing we're now in the 91st centile.
And we also then measured Net Promoter Score. Net Promoter score. We were below 3010 years ago. Now we're 70 in the mid-70s, which is, I mean, world class manufacturing is mid-50s.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:24] Speaker C: So we're knocking it out of the park. Well, when you serve the customers that well, they are willing to talk. Right. And also just part of the process of Net Promoter Score, the real value is sitting down and talking with the customer.
So when you talk to them about what the challenges they are having at winning and how can we help them win, those are good discussions.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: Terrific.
I think, Dari, one thing which you guys have led here, which is not as visible in the numbers itself, is just a transformation of the data infrastructure, the ERP infrastructure.
It's a huge topic these days with AI becoming forefront of everything.
Could you just walk us through?
You had the courage to do it. What was the case for it? What gave you the conviction that.
[00:15:08] Speaker C: Yeah, and I don't deserve any credit for it on that because it was started before I came. But Greif, at the time the current management team arrived, we had over 100 systems.
They had done as a company a lot of acquisitions and for, you know, probably decisions that were right at that time, they didn't go to integrating the systems.
But thankfully before I arrived, somebody had made the decision that would probably be a good idea.
So we maintain that discipline and move from those over 100 systems to effectively where we have one now.
I say effectively because we've still done some acquisitions recently and we're still bringing them onto the system.
But you know, getting clarity of data that drives decision making is important and having it more timely is critical.
And when you have 100 plus systems, you have no chance. You're spending all day trying to figure out what it says, not what it means.
And so we've really pushed through that and now we're at the, I think in terms of industrial companies, we're moving rapidly to try to understand the opportunities of AI.
We look at it as, I think, a force multiplier. I mean, how does it help us make better decisions with the data that we have access to?
We're like everybody, I think, or most everybody. We're still trying to make sure we have really good data, which is a full effort in itself.
[00:16:43] Speaker B: And so Larry, as you think about it, as you talked about it, the M and A piece has obviously been a complication and keeping the data harmonization and orchestration going forward. You have an M and A agenda which you are pursuing. What is your posture with respect to M and A when it comes to data and erp? Like how does DRIVE handle that?
[00:17:01] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, obviously you'd love if you just had the fortune that they had the same systems that you do. That's not usually the case. You know, if you look back, we have had this focus of, you know, getting into these more attractive end markets in pharma and food and ag and flavors and fragrances to lessen the cyclicality of our business, which was heavily dependent on chemical and lubricants.
And in doing so we made recent acquisitions into the jerrycan business. Now jerrycans are these containers that are about this size, but we're in the high end jerrycan business which is that serves those segments and they are specialized in that they have barrier technologies to not let the stuff we cap.
We made those acquisitions that were in line with that strategy of end markets, but also the financial strategy associated with that, which is we are only interested in getting into situations where we're going to be a market leader.
Second, that we have over 18% EBITDA margins that we're acquiring and that it has over 50% free cash flow conversion.
One of the wonderful things about GREIF is we generate a lot of cash.
And so our financing structure is a little bit different in that we are entirely bank debt. And we've done that because it allows us to be flexible and also pay down debt rapidly. And over the last decade saved us about $120 million of interest expense relative to other capital structures that then feeds our ability to do more deals.
And so we've remained consistent in our focus on that end market diversification, but also with those financial metrics of the 18% EBITDA and 50% free cash flow conversion. But we're now more focused on tuck in acquisitions that align to the manufacturing capabilities that we have, whether that's blow molding, injection molding and again industrial.
Although there's some bleed over like in caps and closures where we're selling business to business, it might end up in a consumer packaging application. That's fine.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: So Larry, I think no data or ERP conversation will be complete without AI. And it seems that Graefe, at least from a starting point perspective, is probably in the top quartile of industrial companies.
Where are you seeing value from AI and maybe where you're not seeing enough today.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, what we're seeing right away is in sort of our functional support areas, back office. I mean, we've done a lot already in finance.
You know, we see capabilities and opportunities in both our IT group and also in legal and in hr.
Supply chain is another space that we're trying to leverage.
And all of these, I wouldn't say we've seen tremendous results so far, but we are clearly seeing benefits.
We're trying, like everybody, to measure the return on those investments, but sometimes there's a little bit of, hey, you're going to take some risk, you're going to make some mistakes.
We don't view mistakes as bad things necessarily. It's like, how do we learn quickly and adapt and continuously improve? And so on the industrial manufacturing side, that's, I'd say, a work in progress where we're really trying to explore what's real.
It's been a number of years ago when IBM was coming out, where you're going to have the data devices connected, your machines watching the vibrations and seeing how it impacts your maintenance. And that's still a work in progress.
So we're trying to be attuned to everything we can, like most people, trying to learn as fast as we can.
And, you know, all of us are becoming, I think, better writers. Right.
You know, that kind of thing, the easy applications.
But we are seeing true benefits in terms of our ability to do things like statutory reporting.
That used to be a heavily manual effort and had to be. You know, we used to have country controllers in every country that we were in, in the world. We don't anymore. We now have one shared service center and outsource provider that we're dealing with. All of our statutory reporting, that's been an automation and an AI play. And I think I've challenged our corporate controller at some point.
Do you redeploy those resources into something else, our human resources, and let them add more value than doing statutory reporting, which we can probably have an agentic teammate knew.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Exactly.
That's very helpful. I like the message, Larry, about maybe giving people license to fail, because that's something I think sometimes industrial companies are tough to bind into the culture. So that's good to know. Maybe shifting gears, Larry, a little bit to the broader macroeconomic situation we are in today. Greif obviously works in an industry which is linked to the industrial activity and overall economy which goes with cycles.
What is your take today of the macroeconomic, at least future in the next few quarters and then how are you preparing Greif to kind of stay ahead in that period?
[00:22:27] Speaker C: I didn't know you were with the central bank. Trying to ask my opinion on macroeconomic factors.
Boy, we have been waiting for some inflection point in the industrial economy for three plus years. I mean, it's really been lethargic.
And even things like defense spending lifts, you would think you would see things for us. The biggest drivers that we've been able to identify that impact our business is two things.
One is auto manufacturing worldwide. And you go into markets that we play in, like in Europe, clearly have been impacted by China and what's going on with the EV production and just vehicles as a whole and them not buying as many from Europe. Right. So that has driven down there. You know, auto production in the U.S. while it's okay, it's not robust, but then the biggest one to us is the resale of existing homes in the United States on an age adjusted basis.
Or I mean on a age on population adjusted basis. I'm sorry, it is at the lowest level since 1983.
And so what happens when you go to sell a home, you fix it up. The realtor comes in and says, well, you know, it'd really help it if you spiff this place up, right? Do a little paint, you know, maybe move some things in, maybe new piece of furniture here, whatever. You know, people go to fix it up. Well, and then what happens when somebody like Larry and Cindy move in? Oh, well, I don't like that paint. I don't like this furniture. I like new appliances. I want to do.
So none of that is happening. And what is the common thing of all those things?
They are made, they're manufactured, paints produced, furniture's made, carpets done, appliances are made. And those are all from chemicals that evolve into those products. It's all from industrial products that has had a dramatic influence on the demand for our products. And so we're waiting for that inflection point. Now you ask where I think things are going.
I hope that we see some resolution in the Middle east because what we really need to drive resale of existing homes is lower interest rates.
You look at a macro basis and you say, oh my gosh, all we're doing is increasing our deficit with all the spending on war spend and that kind of thing.
And so you can paint a pretty depressing picture, right?
So hopefully we can see some demand growth driven by military activities and otherwise that will then allow more revenue for the government, pay down debt, get some more confidence in controlling discretionary spend. In the government and hopefully lower interest rates over time.
But there's a lot in there, right?
[00:25:30] Speaker B: It's definitely crystal ball glazing there at this point.
So Larry, you've through your career seen multiple cycles and I'd love to just get the benefit of your take on what have you seen people do or management teams do wrong in down cycles and kind of what separates in your mind companies who do well or come out stronger those periods.
[00:25:50] Speaker C: Yeah, that was a kind way of saying I'm pretty old.
But yeah, you look back at it, I tell people it's interesting to me, you know, when we bought our first home, our interest rate was like 21%.
And you know, that was in the early 80s after the fuel crisis and everything else.
And you know, it went down quickly. But what I saw that people that were struggling through those times didn't do was really listen to their people well enough and listen to their customers well enough. And the people who really did, did well.
You know, it surprises me now you see PE sometimes on the sideline when interest rates went up. I mean KKR enforcement little were big in the 80s and interest rates were a lot higher than now. So somehow we've unlearned how to do deals.
But I think the commonality, whether it was through the DOT time crisis, whether it was the financial crisis and I was the CFO of Nationwide Insurance in the middle of the financial crisis, was people who sort of put their heads in the sand, you know, and didn't really engage with their customers. I think were more troubled than others.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: Comes back to the point of customer intimacy and making sure you're staying there. Maybe Larry, it's this question more on the sector now at least our thesis at both I250 and titanium economy is that the industrial sector by itself, just given the quantum of value generates for everybody, is misunderstood, undervalued, underappreciated. I give this example that my kids are growing up, probably can't pronounce too many of the industrial companies, but they'll talk all about Amazon and Facebooks of the world.
Just from your sense, like what does the broader business community kind of miss about industrials? What would be a myth or something to kind of unravel?
[00:27:38] Speaker C: We agree 100% with you, no bias there.
Yeah, look, I think what it really comes down to is relative risk and return.
And I think. And it then comes back to well run companies and companies not well, so well run. I think if you find a well run industrial company that manages its capital allocation well and serves their Customers with excellence. You know, over time you're going to get the return on the investment that you're in now. Are you going to look like Nvidia? Probably not.
But how many other Nvidia types were there that don't exist anymore? And so, you know, it's relative risk and reward.
And so I think if you, and you know, you talk to most investors, what's the first thing they want to know? They want to meet the management team, they want to have faith in that the people that they're going to put their capital with are people they can trust, are competent and can deliver.
And we at Grae, we often talk about, we don't put out targets, we put out commitments and we've done that over time. And the reason we do it is because we live up to them. And so I think it's important if you're an industrial player is do what you say you're going to do and then deliver what you said you're going to deliver.
Don't over promise, you know, and seeing a lot of those situations over the years where people over promise.
And you know, there was a time at Greif, you know, I'm sure with a lot of good decisions made, but before this management team was here more than a decade ago, we'd missed, you know, consensus and guidance for a lot of quarters and it took a long time to rebuild the trust.
And you know, there were a lot of reasons that that stuff happened that were out of management's control.
But it doesn't matter at the end of the day. And so trying to manage your way through that is not over committing in trying to dig your way out of a hole. Because I think sometimes people's reaction is like, well, I better tell them I'm going to do miraculous things or I won't get any investor interest.
That might get you some short term. I'm not sure in the long term it does very well. But so back, I think industrial, well run companies that do what they say they're going to do, treat their customers and their people well, are going to do nicely for investors over time.
[00:30:19] Speaker B: I love the line. You don't give targets, you give commitments. I think that'll stay with me. That's amazing. Maybe Larry, just moving a little bit to your own personal journey as a leader. I think you spent about nearly three decades at Deloitte and now you have a successful career as a CFO of a leading company.
What part of that advisory career kind of prepared you for success now and then also what Kind of surprised you as you move from that value side to the more operational side.
[00:30:46] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, I never thought I'd leave Deloitte. I really had a great experience with those firms. And you know, whether it's you were at McKinsey, McKinsey is a great firm, Ernst is a great firm, KPMG, PW, all of these are great.
So for young people, if they get an opportunity to go into some of those, I think it can be a great foundational experience.
I started out as a tax advisor. I was a tax advisor for a long time. And you know what's interesting about tax is most of the things you do isn't to avoid tax, it's to delay, pay, paying.
And so it's all about cash flow management. It's exactly like working capital management. It's like, how do I stretch the time I have those dollars to invest in something else? And I worked with clients around that and estate planning and I did corporate advising, but I also worked on a lot of transactions. And I helped a group, ironically some executives at what was then om Scott's back in the 1980s.
I helped them structure how to do things tax wise in buying Scotts out of it, a conglomerate. I mean, Whoever knew that 30 years later I'd be the CFO of Scotts for a year?
That's a long story.
But through that I had the opportunity in working on a lot of transactions over time to actually interact with a lot of C suite people and, and on the side, job was never really my job, but after law school I decided I liked estate planning. So I worked with a lot of executives, so I got to know how they think about a lot of things very well, which helped me later and eventually in my career at Deloitte, I moved into a lot of different management roles and ran an industry group, ran a region of the country, participated in a lot of different strategic planning efforts with the firm. And I was, what we call it, an office of the chairman, advisory partner. So I advised CEOs and some board members about different things. So I just had great foundational experience and I got very fortunate in the timing of a lot of things in my career to interact with a lot of high level execs. So by the time I went to Nationwide, when the CEO asked me to come and be the CFO and I said, you know Jerry, I don't know anything about insurance and I've never been a cfo, but other than that, you're brilliant if you ask me.
But it worked out. And then by the way we had this little thing called the financial crisis in 2008. But I think all of those formative experiences and working through something difficult like the experience of working through the financial crisis when the markets were locked up and you're trying to figure out how do I even access the capital to pay off the insurance claims.
Those things are really great experiences. And my time at Nationwide helped me with that a lot. I'd say that I had one other good thing. I'll just mention I was lucky because I ran some things at Deloitte, different businesses that I ended up getting in a thing called ypo Young Presidents Organization, which at the time you had to be president of something before your age 40 and then you get booted out when you're 50.
That was phenomenal because it's basically at the core of it, you've got sort of this group of 10 to 12 other CEO presidents of companies that you're sort of a personal board of directors. So you learn how people think. So all of those were foundational kind of things that helped a lot.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: Anything that surprised you when you.
[00:34:28] Speaker C: Oh, I'm sorry.
You know, I think the only thing that surprised me a bit, and it was both ways actually. And it's the same word intensity.
And I won't mention names but the.
At one company I was surprised at the lack of intensity and how much it had to do to drive intensity. And then you get another company, it's like, whoa, this is really intense. So it was just, I guess that was the surprise to see the differences in the cultures of different, different situations.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: Interesting. So, Larry, maybe the last question from our side today, the role of the CFO has changed quite a bit over the last few years. I think maybe starting off with more traditional finance oriented scope to now I see so many CFOs sometimes having operating responsibilities, sometimes having IT and innovation kind of putting to them. How do you see the role of the CFO changing over the next decade? And folks who are now coming through the ranks, like what should they do to kind of prepare themselves?
[00:35:31] Speaker C: Yeah, and you know, it's changed, I think pretty dramatically in the last 25, 30 years.
You know, you go way back. The typical road to CFO was to be the, you know, accountant, the controller, the whatever and you know, that that sort is mitigated away. It's, I think it's still important fundamentally to understand, you know, how a P and L is formed and you know, how the, how GAAP financial principles work, you know, deal structuring. But it's clearly become more strategic. And I think though, going forward, the, the other is just this insatiable appetite for curiosity to learn and agility and ability to learn. You know, it's I, I think it's interesting to hear all the discussion, read all the articles about parents wondering what's going to happen or grandparents, what's going to happen to my grandkids? What should they study? Should they go into accounting or should they go into, you know, engineering, or should they go into. And a lot of discussion that perhaps the better path is a broad liberal arts education where they really learn conceptual things about how do you learn, how do you think, how do you approach a problem? And I think there's a lot of merit to that. And I think particularly so with people thinking of or evolving into CFO roles, I think you have to be incredibly adaptable.
[00:37:03] Speaker B: Those really wise words, Larry and I sincerely appreciate from the INR team that you'll be able to make time for this.
[00:37:08] Speaker C: Thank you very much. Appreciate being invited.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Thanks very much.
[00:37:17] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to AINA Insights. Please visit INA AI for more podcasts, publications and events on developments shaping the industrial and industrial technology sector.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: Sam.
